How to stand out when applying for jobs
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Katy: [00:00:00] Let's work it.

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Work It, a UVic career exploration podcast. My name is Katie. I'm a writer and a communications professional who recently earned my MA in English right here at UVic. I'm here today with my friend, colleague, and coffee run buddy, Emma.

Emma: Hey everyone, welcome back to Work It.

Excited for today's episode. It's going to be really good.

Katy: Before we move in to today's discussion, I want to [00:01:00] take a moment to acknowledge that, as always, we're recording on campus at the University of Victoria. I'd like to acknowledge with respect the Lekwungen peoples on whose traditional territory the university stands, and the Songhees, Esquimalt, and W̱SÁNEĆ peoples whose historical relationships with the land continue to this day.

I really encourage you, wherever you are in the world, to take a moment to learn about the land that you're on. What's its history? Who are the people that have been on that land since time immemorial? It's really enriched and changed my relationship to the territories I've lived on. To do that work and take a minute to learn about it.

Today we're diving back into our Ask an Expert feature, where we're talking about all of your biggest career and work related questions. I'm really excited today to be chatting with Richard Myers. Richard has been a career educator here at UVic since 2016, working primarily with social science students.

Before then, he worked with a co op team at Simon Fraser University in the School of Interactive Arts and Technology. Originally from the [00:02:00] UK, Richard holds a major in commerce from Sir John Moores University in Liverpool, and has been here in Canada since 2001. We're going to be talking to Richard today about how we can stand out when we're applying for jobs.

I don't think it's possible to go through life without having to go through this process of applying for a job at least once. So we're going to try to demystify some of the questions that everybody has and nobody seems to want to ask. Richard, we're so excited to chat with you today.

Richard: Hi, thank you very much for inviting me.

Emma: You bet. We're excited to dive in. When you're writing a resume, how can you make that resume stand out against all the others that have been submitted to a company?

Richard: What you're trying to do is put a document in front of someone that looks as if it is customized and tailored to that person, to that job, to that organization. So I think the key thing before you even put a resume together is figuring out, well, what kind of [00:03:00] job are you looking to try to target?

You know, narrowing down your field of focus, making some decisions about the kinds of job postings that you want to be competitive for. And I think sometimes we do it sort of back to front. We try and put a resume together. And then we start applying for positions. So I'm thinking, do it the other way around, do some research on the kind of opportunities that are out there, and then look at a few job postings.

I think it's good to sort of look at job postings first and then create the document that's going to bring you success. So I think how to make it stand out, where do you start? So there's three aspects to resumes. The design of the resume, the look, so to speak, the structure, what sections go where and why.

And then obviously the content, the details and information. I'll talk about structures first because there's [00:04:00] three structural approaches when it comes to resumes. There's the chronological, the functional, and the combination, or hybrid. My perspective is I prefer the chronological approach really, because it's maybe the simplest and most commonly used resume structure.

And obviously a chronological resume is essentially. You put the work experience onto the document in reverse chronological order, i. e. the most recent piece of experience is the first thing that is listed under the work experience section. In terms of design, so what I'd be thinking about is I'd like to see personally a two page resume versus a one page for the most part.

Now, one pages can work quite well if you're just applying for a simple summer job, something that doesn't require a lot of information, if you like, on the document. But mostly, I would say [00:05:00] a two page approach is my preference. The other thing when it comes to design is I like to see the person's name substantially put onto the resume, so it kind of... sticks out a little bit.

Now, maybe there's a bit of shading. Maybe there's a bit of color. Wouldn't go over the top with either of those things, but I would certainly be thinking about changing the typeface from Times New Roman or Arial, which are very common looks, and so therefore not necessarily ones that will stand out.

Now, I wouldn't necessarily go all the way to Comic Sans, which is another typeface that's really wacky. But I'd maybe do just a little Google search, you know, good typefaces for a resume, and just seeing how your resume looks. Typeface size, probably around 12. Don't make it too small. We're trying to get that balance of white space versus text.

So that's kind of the design thing.

[00:06:00] Content, what I would say is that the important thing about content is having a section at the very start of the resume that has four to five, six bullet points that reference the job posting, or the area of industry that you're looking to be competitive within. Might talk about research skills, communication skills, analytical skills, experience with MS Office.

That kind of blend of soft and hard skills. The final point I'd make around content is that very often we think employers only read resumes for five or six seconds and then they're off to the next one. And so I need to keep things very brief and very simple. Okay. That's a slight fallacy. Employers don't read resumes that they don't like for very long.

A section at the top that talks about what your skill is and how you acquired it. So not only the what, but a little bit about the how. The incidence of MS Office, maybe strong with MS Office, but particularly proficient with [00:07:00] Excel, where I have developed certain fancy spreadsheets, or used formulas, or used pivot tables, or whatever that happens to be.

So that's the how. Then they're gonna spend more time with your resume, more than six to seven seconds, because now you've gotten their attention.

Katy: I think that's such a good approach. And I know for myself at this point, I probably have like 15 different versions of my resume that have gone out to different organizations, different jobs.

I have a one page version. I have a two page version. I have one where my education's at the bottom and one where it's at the top. And I mean, it's so easy to get lost in the sauce as it were. Having a master document where literally everything you've ever done is on there can probably make that process a bit easier so that you're not needing to hunt down your information after you find those job postings and start working on that document.

I think maybe the only thing that scares me more than putting together a resume is writing a cover [00:08:00] letter. The advice that we hear about cover letters is so all over the place. We know that it's supposed to complement our resume, but I don't want to use that space to just repeat everything that's already on my resume.

My resume is already supposed to show my skills, so do you have any advice for writing a strong cover letter that complements what's on our resume, but isn't just a repetition of everything we've already shown and all the work we've already done?

Richard: Yeah, when it comes to cover letters, I think you'd structure things simply if you can.

So a cover letter would be maybe three sections. So you have an introductory paragraph, a central paragraph, and then a summary or closing paragraph. The best cover letters are the ones that a reader can immediately identify as having been written for them specifically. Definitely crafting a strong opening paragraph.

How do you do that? Again, I think it's important to do that little bit of research first, that little bit of legwork. Look at the company, look at the job [00:09:00] posting, look at their social media. Is there anything interesting that they're involved in at the moment? Is there anything interesting that you read in the job posting?

Is it a well written job posting? And is there anything interesting within it that you kind of connect with? And you can make a point within that opening paragraph that shows that you have read the job posting. That shows that you have gone to their website or their social media feed. And you can make a point around something that they are interested in, that maybe you are interested in too.

Or maybe it's a particular skill that they mention within the job posting that you can reference. Believe me, you do that, you're already going to stand out from 90 percent of the candidates. Within the central paragraph, what I tend to think effective is telling a story. So tell me a bit about the situation.

When did it happen? Who were you working with? What was the challenge? Then talk a little bit about some of the [00:10:00] actions you took. Within those action statements, talk a little bit about some of the skills you were able to bring to bear. And then obviously within the closing paragraph, think about telling them why you're interested in the position.

Close strong.

Katy: I think it's a great how to and really provides a good checklist structure that people can think about as they're putting a cover letter together.

Emma: Yeah, I like that idea of telling it as a story because really that's what a cover letter is. And when you think of it that way, it's a little less scary to write about yourself.

I'm telling my story and how my story can fit with your company's story. I really like that perspective.

Katy: I think too. It can often feel like, oh my goodness, I'm going to have to do so much work to tailor every job application. But for most of us, a lot of the jobs we're applying to require similar or the same skills.

And so it sounds to me like that story you're telling, those skills you want to highlight. It doesn't [00:11:00] necessarily have to change very much. It's sort of a work smarter, not harder situation where you take the time to tailor your introduction, what excites you about the position. But if you're applying to eight different communications jobs, you can keep the same skills highlighted.

Richard: Yeah, you want to try to introduce a bit of the soft skills and a little bit of the technical skills in your cover letter. So if you're getting ambitious, you could potentially put two central paragraphs in a cover letter. So it'd be a four paragraph approach. One story might be more focused around your team skills.

Customer interaction skills, and then one of the other paragraphs would maybe focus on your research skill set, maybe your analytical skill set or your critical project management. But you're also preparing yourself for the kinds of questions that you're going to get asked in an interview. So tell me about a time when you worked on a project and things went well.

Tell me about a time you had a technical [00:12:00] research experience. And so putting together a good cover letter can be good preparation for responding and doing really well in interviews.

Katy: I love that. Yeah, it's like a practice run.

Emma: And evidently, it's really worthwhile to do that research ahead of time, to know a little bit more about who you're going to be speaking to, or at least a bit about the company.

And social media is a really good way to do that. That being said, Is it worth it to connect with specific people on social media? Should I be on LinkedIn? Should I be connecting with the organization ahead of time?

Richard: Employers are not necessarily putting all of their eggs and all of their job postings onto job posting sites very often.

There are positions that are posted internally or sourced through referrals through people that network. So going back to this idea of connecting with employers on social media, I think that comes under the bigger bracket of people that are being more proactive in their [00:13:00] job search. And I would definitely say that it's very advantageous to not just look at job postings and apply to job postings.

On websites. There's no harm in doing that. And certainly I've been encouraging people to do that in addition to a bit of networking. Now, whether that's through social media and sites such as, you know, LinkedIn is obviously the big one that I use and the one I'm most familiar with. I think there are other ways to do some proactive networking.

Again, it depends a little bit on the field you're looking into, but I really think things like attending conferences are really excellent ways of getting out there and mingling with people that are in the field in a friendly, non confrontational kind of networking environment. So, for example, back in the day when I was thinking, am I going to go into career education as a career, or am I going to maybe look at something like HR?

I actually went to the BCHRMA conference in Vancouver, which is obviously the [00:14:00] big gathering of HR people in this part of the world. You know, and there's just all sorts of workshops, keynotes, information about what's happening in the field, just in general. That's part of the kind of conference vibe.

There's lots of opportunities to just chat with people. I'm interested in getting in the field. Curious to know how you got into it. What are the opportunities like right now? What would you recommend to somebody like me to do if you were in my shoes? Reaching out to employers is extremely important because that's how they think about hiring.

Emma: Yeah, right on. That networking piece is important, and I think so many of us are like, oh no, I have to network, but it does make a big difference.

Katy: Absolutely. I think that when people first hear that fact that a lot of jobs get filled without ever being publicly posted, it can feel a little bit discouraging.

You might feel like you're missing out on a lot of opportunities. That being said, networking is so [00:15:00] valuable to hearing about opportunities that don't get posted. And I'm thinking, especially in the age of remote, online, and hybrid work, if you have any specific tips for students looking to use an online network to help them in their job search, whether it's just setting up their LinkedIn profile for the first time. Not to expose myself, but I didn't know people actually used LinkedIn until I got my first job after college and I was like, oh my gosh, nope. This is a real site that I have to be on. Yeah.

Richard: So yes, I run a LinkedIn Essentials workshop every couple of weeks. I use the site fairly regularly when I'm actually working with students around career exploration and labor market questions.

When it comes to networking, what am I hoping to achieve from engaging with employers and connecting with people in, shall we say, my industry of interest. And I think there's this sort of pressure put on the whole process. It's [00:16:00] like, okay, I've got to make all these sort of friends in my area of interest or at the organization that I want to work for.

And those friends will help me get shortlisted. Personally, I think the first approach when it comes to the right mindset around networking is to just kind of consider it as another research tool, another area where you can learn more about the pros and cons of working at your organization of interest or in your industry or field.

It's a research tool. So when I go on to LinkedIn, for instance, I'm in psychology, for example, I'm coming up to graduate. Let's go on to LinkedIn and find out what recent graduates in psychology have gone on to find success in. So where are they currently employed? You can go to the UVic page on LinkedIn.

You can then click on what's called the alumni tool. And then within that alumni tool, you can select. Just psych [00:17:00] students and there's around six to seven thousand Currently listed in that LinkedIn database that have UVic and psychology somewhere in their LinkedIn profiles Wow so narrowing it down from All students that graduated from UVic to all students that graduated from UVic with the psychology undergrad. Maybe all students that have graduated just in the past four or five years. You can now look to see what are those students actually doing, what areas have they gone into.

Is it education, community services, business development, HR, marketing? It, what it does is it breaks it all down by field. And you can then look at individual profiles, which is almost like, you know, online resumes and see how people have gotten to where they're currently working at. At that point, you can potentially ask to connect with them directly and ask more specific questions.

But. All that can be done relatively [00:18:00] straightforwardly without any of that kind of networking pressure that we talked about at the start.

Katy: What a useful tool. I think that is such a great tip. What you mentioned about looking at individual profiles really resonated with me because something that I have done, especially when I'm working on putting together application materials, is try to find people with the kinds of jobs that I'm applying for and see what skills they're highlighting.

If you're seeing a skill come up a bunch of different times in a job posting, that's a pretty good clue that that's something you want to be developing and highlighting. So I think that's great.

Emma: Yeah, for sure. And also, I think a lot of us forget that we're networking every day in our everyday lives. I mean, even this podcast, for example, I've grown my network with so many people just by interviewing them on this podcast.

I mean, people at your job, people that you're friends with, people that your mom knows. You have a pretty wide network already. [00:19:00] Before you even start going down this path of research and all the useful things that Richard's just mentioned. So don't forget, too, that you have people in your corner already and who knows who they know.

Maybe I was to say to Richard, Oh, Richard, I'm looking for a job in this field. And Richard says, Oh, actually, I happen to know a guy and he's hiring right now. And I, you know, if I hadn't said anything, I wouldn't have known. So, yeah, that is a really interesting point.

Richard: And I think you've made a very good point when it comes to networking.

It's usually not your network that will give you specific job ideas or job posting referrals. It's usually the network of your network. And really, networking is just asking for help. And, and I'm guilty of doing this myself in the past. It's like, no, I'm going to do it on myself.

Katy: Yeah.

Relatable.

Richard: But reaching out is quite courageous. It's like saying, I'm not, I'm not willing to give up. I'm willing to put effort into this. And that effort involves asking [00:20:00] other people for their assistance. I think when you're in a situation where you kind of feel a bit vulnerable, like, you know, I don't have a career yet.

I'm just about to get into the world of work. I'm looking at job postings and I'm seeing these big long lists of requirements.

Emma: Oh, it's so daunting.

Richard: Yeah. And so I think there is a sense. Particularly when you're just coming up to graduation and you start looking at job postings, it can be quite daunting at that particular moment.

To try to handle that a little bit is to kind of say, okay, I'm going to be a bit proactive. I'm going to reach out to some people and ask and learn a little bit more. And employers appreciate it too. You know, it's like they might ask for X number of years of experience in terms of their preference. But they understand that when they're working with people that are just getting into the labor market, that's not something that everyone can bring.

So, you know, what is entry level? Where am I likely to be competitive? Can I get a little bit of input from people that know a [00:21:00] little bit more than me? And that's seen as becoming more knowledgeable and then building back up that self esteem.

Katy: Absolutely. I think that leads me so smoothly into my next big question, which is when we're feeling discouraged during our job search, what can we do to combat that feeling?

Richard: So, firstly, I think it's important to say that most people are going to get discouraged at some point and frustrated.

Emma: Mm hmm.

Richard: But particularly, if you sort of are focusing on that, I'm going to apply to online job postings and just see what happens, and I'm going to apply to as many as possible and kind of see what happens.

So, I would say that it's common. I think we've all been there. To mitigate it, add some proactive elements to your job search, so not just be focused on the applying to and through online [00:22:00] websites. Think about going to events, attending webinars, finding ways to have conversations with people, that networking piece that we've kind of talked about.

Maybe making some plans and figuring out some schedules, setting some targets. I'm going to try and do one thing that gets me out of my comfort zone this week. And that might be conferences or webinar or sending in some connection requests on LinkedIn. But also scheduling your job search and limiting it so you don't get too burnt out.

So part of that whole planning thing is to sort of give yourself some breaks, and not be thinking about work and applying for jobs 24/ 7. And then I would say definitely trying, just trying different things. Doing things that get you out of the house, get you out of your headspace. Some volunteering work can be quite helpful.

And that doesn't even have to be in a related sector. Just getting involved [00:23:00] in something or volunteering with something. Maybe even a small part time job, perhaps. Again, that's not necessarily in your related sector, but you're going to be meeting people. When you do the proactive piece, you can often strangely have the right kind of conversations at just the right time.

Just because you're out there. I think it's definitely helpful to try and connect with other people.

Katy: Yeah, I mean, I can speak a little bit even to the value of volunteering. I spent time, like, while I was searching for my first co op job, every week I was volunteering in a kitchen preparing free frozen meals for people in the community.

And I don't work in food service. I don't work in hospitality. It was not at all related to what I was studying or what I wanted to do, but It made me feel really connected at a time when most of my life was pretty stressful. I was applying for jobs. I was finishing grad school. I was just like, go, go, go all the time.

It gave me [00:24:00] permission to do something where I was connected to other people. I felt like I was giving back and I met so many great people. Even though none of those people were someone who eventually gave me a job or eventually referred me to an opportunity, I mean, I think of them as, as part of my network.

And when I encounter them in other settings, other volunteer events throughout the city, these connections are really, really valuable. And I think that there's so much you can learn from people, even in industries you're not interested in. There's really a lot to be said for what an important part of self care and not burning out that can be, especially in the job search, where it can feel like if I'm not looking for a job 100 percent of the time, then I'm not doing enough and I'm going to fail.

It's like, it's okay. You can clock out. You can go do something for you and for your community. It's fine.

Richard: Yeah. And then you come back to the job search refreshed.

Katy: Absolutely.

Richard: I know that one of the other questions we're kind of focused on is if you're applying for lots of jobs and not hearing back, what could you do differently?

[00:25:00] And that, that comes under this discouragement umbrella.

Katy: Absolutely.

Richard: So coming to see someone in career services, I think is advantageous, obviously talking to other friends, family that you have a bit of trust. And maybe you can give a little bit of their perspective would probably be helpful too. Yeah, I always feel like there's a comfort zone, but then when we step outside of our comfort zone, usually really good things can happen.

Yeah, discouragement I think often comes from, maybe the target is either too small, or it's too competitive, or my target is too big and too diffuse.

Emma: But this is my personal opinion, so take it for what you will. But I do get the sense that timing is also important, both in your life and in what you're doing.

For example, when I was a co op student and I... I was applying to the role that I am now currently in. I started as a co op student here in this office and I applied for that job and I didn't get it the first time. And I was devastated because that [00:26:00] was the only one I wanted to do. That was the one where I was like, Oh, I have all these transferable skills from other things.

It'll be so great. It's in the realm that I want to be in. And I was devastated. And then, a year later, I had to do another co op, and I thought, oh, there's that role again. And I thought, should I do it? I already didn't get it once, what's different about me now? But I thought, no, I would be mad if I didn't try it again, and here I am.

I got the job. And it, all that it came down to was that I had that extra year of time in school, I had some extra experience. And my interview was way better the second time and it was the right time. I think my experience would have been completely different if I had gotten it that first time I had tried.

So sometimes it just happens to be that things fall into your lap the way they're supposed to. So don't worry too much if what you think was the perfect opportunity and you don't get it. You never know, maybe something better's coming along, or maybe you go [00:27:00] back in a year or two and it was the right time.

Richard: Yeah, a little bit of resilience there as well. I've got rebuffed, but that's okay. It's not personal. I'm gonna have another run at it. Obviously, there comes a point where the message needs to get through and you're not really the right candidate. And then, and then it's important to reach out and get some feedback from the selection committee or whomever.

Emma: I'm really glad you brought that up, actually, because I did want to ask you when is it okay to ask for feedback on your performance in an interview?

Or if you didn't hear back after an interview and you want to know, did I get the job or not? Should I move on? You know, when is it okay to ask for that kind of feedback?

Richard: If you finish an interview, it's really useful to make some notes quite quickly. What questions did you feel flummoxed by? Where did you feel you maybe did well, didn't do well?

Try to track that yourself. Then you kind of have to do that really soon after the interview itself. So [00:28:00] don't wait a day or two, do it literally straight after if you can. Do it on the bus.

Katy: Do it on the bus.

Richard: There's probably things that you already know that you kind of have a challenge around. That's the first thing.

Coming in and doing a mock interview with a career educator to again, get some just general objective feedback before you even go into an interview. Or we have an online platform that can give you a little bit of interview feedback electronically. Now, when you're talking about having gone to an interview and then getting feedback from employers, most employers, I think, are probably happy to provide feedback to interview candidates.

I ask for interview feedback once a decision has been made. Generally, it's best to do it by email. What you're trying to get is something authentic. Like, can you tell me the things I did well, and maybe the things I didn't do so well? [00:29:00] And can you maybe give me one tip or one piece of advice from your perspective that would have helped me be more competitive. And most people I think would see that as a reasonable request. There's no guarantee that an employee is going to respond to that and give you any detailed feedback, but you don't know until you ask. I try to craft the question in a way that asks for some specific but actionable tips and suggestions.

Katy: I think that's such great advice. Once you've gotten to that phase where you have interviewed and a decision's been made, this is someone you've met face to face and you have a little bit of a relationship that you're asking that question around. So I think it's a great opportunity. I've also done interviews in the past with organizations that provide feedback to everyone, they make it just a matter of rote in their application process. And there's a little part of me that never wants to hear it. I don't want to know what I struggled with. [00:30:00] I don't want to know what I did wrong. Um, but I really. I try to resist that voice.

I encourage everybody to resist that voice. If anyone ever offers you feedback, take it. You don't have to agree with it. You don't even necessarily have to act on it. It's a really great opportunity just to hear another perspective. So, yeah, don't be like me. Do as I say.

Richard: Yeah, it's very natural. You're quite right.

There's not much you can do about that little voice.

Katy: Just gotta ignore it.

Richard: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Emma: Well, at this point, I think it's safe to ask you if there's any other events, programs, resources, anything out there that you have thought of that you think could be useful to tell students before we close on our excellent session today.

Richard: Yeah, I'd certainly recommend coming in and talking to a career educator around any of these job search, applying for jobs questions, because [00:31:00] individual one to one conversations can be much more tailored and made more applicable to your circumstances. We do offer a smart resumes workshop every month or so.

I'd certainly recommend also, if you go onto the Career Services website, we have a quick resume feedback evaluation tool called vMock. You log in with your Netlink account, you upload your resume, that gives you very quick feedback based out of a hundred as to how well your resume is doing based on the algorithm and that particular tool.

And then it'll give you some more detailed feedback if you'd like. So I'd definitely check out that option. It's kind of fun to use. I know my resume isn't anywhere near a hundred, but, uh, and then finally, one last thing I'd say is that when you're looking at job postings, Uh, one thing I really enjoy sometimes doing is putting a job posting into a free word cloud generator.

Reading job postings can be [00:32:00] kind of hard work combined with the notion that a lot of employers are now using this applicant tracking software process to filter out certain applications based on keywords. Chuck a job posting into a free word cloud generator and see what kind of words get emphasized.

And see if you can try to introduce some of those words into that highlights of qualification section or maybe even the entry opening paragraph of your cover letter. It's kind of a fun way of just kind of playing around with the whole reading job postings before bed.

Katy: And when you get like the dreaded LinkedIn job alert email at like six in the morning and it's like, leave me alone.

Those are all really great resources and tips. And we will link to all the relevant information as always. I also just want to make sure people know that even if you've graduated, you can still see a career educator. So it's something that's available [00:33:00] to alumni as well as current students. Whether you're looking for a new job or have a big interview coming up or are thinking of making a career change, it's something you can take advantage of.

Richard: Absolutely.

Katy: Thank you so much, Richard, for being here today and for sharing your expertise with us. You've been doing this a long time and I think that while applying for jobs doesn't always feel exciting, having actionable advice that we can use and tips and tricks to make the process a little less painful really goes super long way for helping people feel confident and a little more empowered when they're going through the process.

So thank you.

Richard: It's been fun. Thanks for inviting me.

Emma: Anytime. Glad you were here.

Katy: Work It is developed and distributed by Co op and Career Services at the University of Victoria. The podcast is hosted by Katie DeCoste and Emma Ulveland and produced by Katie, Emma, and Joy Poliquin. Today's guest was Richard Myers.

Our theme music and art were created by Emma Ulveland with audio editing by Emma [00:34:00] Ulveland. If you enjoyed today's episode, subscribe and you'll never miss an update. To learn more about career possibilities and resources from UVic, visit uvic. ca slash career dash services.