Emma Ulveland: 00:32

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to season three of Work It, a UVic career exploration podcast. I'm so excited to be back with a whole new season, and we are excited to be bringing you more inspiring alumni who are making a huge difference in their communities and the career decisions that have led them to where they are today. We're gonna dive into that this season as well as connecting with our amazing team of career educators who are providing guidance on topics like, what do I do with my degree, and how do I change career paths? The big questions everybody wants to know.

Emma Ulveland: 01:08

I'm your host, Emma, and this season, I'm excited to say that I'm almost done with my second degree, so I will be looking back on all of these amazing episodes over the time we've been doing Work It and applying those to my new upcoming career search. Today, we're recording at the University of Victoria, which is located on the traditional territory of the Lekwungen, Songhees, and Kosapsum Peoples. We want to extend our gratitude for being here as uninvited guests and respect the ongoing historical relationships of the Lekwungen and WSANEC peoples with this land. It is such a privilege to be here. Another privilege is that today, we are able to invite Fiona Wong, a UVic law graduate with a passion for labor and employment law, who is also a twenty twenty four emerging alumni.

Emma Ulveland: 01:57

During her time at UVic, Fiona founded the first generation network at UVic to reduce barriers for law students who are the first in their family to attend postsecondary. She has served as president of the Federation of Asian Canadian Lawyers, helped produce a award winning law documentary called But I Look Like a Lawyer, and launched a podcast featuring Asian Canadian lawyers. Welcome to the show, Fiona. Thank you so much for calling in.

Fiona Wong: 02:23

Thank you so much for having me, Emma. It's very nice to meet everyone. I'm actually calling in from downtown Vancouver, and we are located on the traditional and unceded territories of the Musqueam, Coast Salish, and Tsleil Waututh peoples.

Emma Ulveland: 02:36

Well, we are so glad you're here. Let's just dive right in. Sure. Bring us all the way back to the beginning. When you were starting out as a student, what drew you to the field of law and why did you choose to come to UVic?

Fiona Wong: 02:50

Yeah, absolutely. There's a couple reasons why I decided to pursue law. The main reason is because I wanted to help people. I'm quite squeamish with blood, so quickly rolled out medical school and a potential science degree. I've also had the opportunity to take LaunchPulse not once, but actually twice in high school, and I really enjoyed it.

Fiona Wong: 03:09

And I thank my teacher at the time who really inspired my passion in the subject area. And I think just over the years and throughout my upbringing, I've been told by my peers and my parents that I make a good advocate and I can be quite outspoken at times and so that's some of the reasons why I decided to pursue law. In terms of why UVic, so I'm not sure if many people know this about me but I actually did my first year of law school at the University of Windsor in Ontario, also an excellent school, but due to personal life circumstances at the time I decided to transfer back to University of Victoria and I say transfer back because I am actually from Vancouver. So I wanted to be back in BC at the time And some of the reasons why I wanted to be at UVic was not just exclusively geographical, it was also because UVic is known to be a social justice oriented law school. I really liked the course offerings that the school had to offer.

Fiona Wong: 03:59

They were very interesting and it was coupled with lots of opportunities to do different moots in the upper years, as well as the Law Center so you could participate in the legal clinic. I also thought that UVic really stood out to me in terms of financial circumstances. It actually does have one of the lowest tuition rates out of the common law schools across Canada, so for anybody who's considering going to UVic, I think that is also something that's very appealing. And finally, I found that UVic was a law school that was very transfer student friendly. So in my year, we had quite a sizable group of us that came from different law schools across Canada, and I am really fortunate that we were able to have that community as a second year student coming into the JD program.

Emma Ulveland: 04:42

Well, I'm so glad that you were able to find a home at UVic. You brought up social justice. Clearly, that's very important to you. When you were a student, you started up the first generation network. I would love to hear a little bit more about that and how it impacted you.

Fiona Wong: 04:56

For sure. So the First Generation Network is a nonprofit organization aimed at helping reduce or eliminate barriers for students who are first in their family to attend postsecondary education. It did impact me in a lot of different ways. So up until that point in 2018, the FGN had only been available at chapters in Ontario law schools, but I was the first to bring it out west at UVic. It helped me feel like I belonged more to UVic law by creating a community for first generation students such as myself, something that I realized that I needed a lot because, for example, my parents didn't know what OCIs were.

Fiona Wong: 05:32

They were just happy that I had a job, but they had no idea how to help me with interview prep, how to network, or how to get there. And I just didn't have connections to the legal profession, so finding my group of people through the FGN was quite life changing for me. I actually found that it was difficult to recruit people who fell within this category or self identified as first generation because not a lot of people met that definition, which made me realize, wow, we really need this even more. I also found that this FGM project was impactful because it helped me connect with law students across Canada, so it wasn't just students at UVic, but also at other common law schools. And through the FGN, I was able to put my leadership skills to the test for the first time.

Fiona Wong: 06:14

I had never been the president of any sort of initiative or organization up until that point with a small team of executives. We coordinated judges panels and interview workshops geared towards people who were first in their family to go to post secondary. And I'm grateful for the judges who volunteered their time because even finding judges to speak on a panel who came from a first generation background was a difficult task in itself. But I think the initiative that had the biggest impact on me through the FGM was actually launching a one on one mentorship program. So we paired some of the students through FGM at UVic with practicing lawyers in Vancouver and Victoria BC, and we allowed people who were first in their family to go to post secondary to connect with people who were ahead of them in terms of careers so that we could ask questions.

Fiona Wong: 07:00

And for me, I found that to be really helpful because every step of the way so far in my post secondary and legal career path, I've always had to figure it out on my own. So I found that to be very impactful.

Emma Ulveland: 07:12

Wow. It sounds like an absolutely amazing initiative. I'm so impressed that you were able to create such an inclusive and incredible space for people. I bet it's had incredible impacts across everyone who's been a part of it. So now I wanna shift a little bit into what you're doing now, and I've never studied law, I don't know enough about it, and I'd love to learn a bit more about what it is that you do in the legal sector.

Emma Ulveland: 07:39

What does it mean to be a labor, employment, civil litigation, and human rights lawyer? Those are some big words. So, yeah, tell us a bit about what you do now.

Fiona Wong: 07:48

For sure. I do wear different hats in my current day to day career as a lawyer. There are actually small differences between labor and employment law and I actually didn't know this until I looked into pursuing it a bit more seriously. So, labor law actually deals with employment issues involving unions. So it would include things like collective bargaining, grievances, and duty of fair representation complaints, for example.

Fiona Wong: 08:11

On the other hand, employment law would deal with employment issues which do not involve unions. So this would be 95% of the work that I do. So that includes things like severance package negotiations when people are terminated from their employment without cause and they need someone to look at the terms of the severance package just to make sure everything is fair. That also includes things like dealing with wrongful or unjust dismissal cases or constructive dismissal, which is when an employer unilaterally changes a really fundamental condition of your employment. Civil litigation refers to files where you go to court.

Fiona Wong: 08:45

So, if you're not a litigator, you're something called a solicitor. So solicitors don't usually go to court, they usually draft documents such as contracts. I like labor and employment law because it's actually an area of law where you could do both. You don't have to be exclusively one or the other, It can be a bit of a hybrid, and we actually call that a solicitor practice. Practicing in civil litigation, again, you're not exclusively tied to labor and employment.

Fiona Wong: 09:08

You can be practicing in other areas of law. So actually, before I pivoted into labor and employment law, I practiced construction litigation as well as strata law. So I dealt with condominium issues in BC. And finally, human rights, that goes hand in hand with labor and employment law, but that refers to files dealing with discrimination against a protected characteristic under different legislation. Depending on if the employee works in a provincially or federally regulated sector, they would either be governed by the BC Human Rights Code or they would be governed by the Canadian Human Rights Act.

Fiona Wong: 09:41

A protected characteristic would mean things like race or age or gender. So human rights matters would generally deal with discrimination cases based on those protected grounds.

Emma Ulveland: 09:50

My goodness, you do it all. And I know you said you got into this field because you wanted to help people. What's your favorite thing about working in this sector now that you've been here for a while? What do you love about it?

Fiona Wong: 10:02

So in my current practice, I represent both employees and employers. On the employee side, I find it very fulfilling when I'm able to help them negotiate a much larger severance package than they were initially offered. One of my fondest memories was when I conducted my first mediation, and I was right beside my client. She was very emotional, understandably so, because she had been with this employer for more than twenty years, and the way that the employment relationship ended was less than ideal. And at the same time, she actually lost her mom in the process.

Emma Ulveland: 10:34

Oh, no.

Fiona Wong: 10:35

I know. Yeah. I was really sad. She brought a photo of her and her mom at Disneyland to the mediation just to remind her that she would be able to push through all of this. And so it was a highly emotional experience, but in the end we were able to achieve a good outcome for her and she was very grateful for having the ability to go to mediation to resolve it without litigation because the court process is very costly and also very emotionally taxing.

Fiona Wong: 10:59

So that was one instance where I found it was very fulfilling to be representing an employee. Now switching over to the employer side, representing the big guys doesn't always mean they're bad people. Sometimes these are small local businesses who are just trying to keep up with the economic realities of our market. And sometimes, unfortunately, they do have to part ways with certain employees who are either putting the business and their reputation at risk or maybe they are just no longer a good fit. And sometimes employers come to us because they want to make sure that they're ending the employment relationship on the most amicable note possible, make sure that they're offering the most reasonable severance package in line with our laws.

Fiona Wong: 11:39

And so to help them navigate through some of these tough challenges, especially in the current state of the economy, I think a lot of smaller businesses especially tend to be struggling. So being able to help give them advice just to make sure they're not offside of any legal requirements, I find that to be very impactful and fulfilling as well.

Emma Ulveland: 11:57

Wow. That's amazing. Your impact on the world clearly reaches so far. I think that's really wonderful. You run a podcast featuring Asian Canadian lawyers Mhmm.

Emma Ulveland: 12:06

And co produced But I Look Like a Lawyer, which is a documentary that shines a light on discrimination, stereotyping, the bias experienced by members of the Pan Asian legal community. How's your identity shaped your experience in law and in your field? How do you see that changing in the future?

Fiona Wong: 12:26

Yeah. Absolutely. So my identity as an Asian woman has definitely impacted my experience in law. I come from an immigrant middle class family, so law in general, as I mentioned, has been tough to navigate. I didn't come from a family where I was well connected to the legal community.

Fiona Wong: 12:43

I also found that after starting work, I had no relation to some of the partners who had very privileged upbringings such as the opportunity to attend private school or playing varsity sports or living in very affluent areas of town. And I think that has also shaped how I look at my career and my profession post graduation. For example, a lot of my classmates graduated without any sort of student debt, but I have had to navigate some of that, and I know that I'm certainly not alone in that regard. So, having some of that financial pressure has also been a bit stressful for me. As an Asian woman, sometimes I find that I am subjected to subtle forms of discrimination and bias, which you can see examples of in the documentaries.

Fiona Wong: 13:25

The documentary and the podcast are both produced under the Federation of Asian Canadian Lawyers, which is a nonprofit society whose mandate is to promote equity, justice, and opportunity for the Asian Canadian legal community. Some subtle forms of discrimination that I've experienced include being called a diversity hire. I remember actually walking to UVic head high, going through the hallways beaming with a huge smile on my face because I just landed a summer job as a second year student and someone asked me, Did you get it because you're a diversity hire? I never for a second thought that it was because of that, but that was quite upsetting and in hindsight I wish I had confronted this person about it. I've participated in a number of student clubs and I remember vividly we had to do an unconscious bias exercise at school.

Fiona Wong: 14:10

And the facilitator would read out a statement and then depending on how you agree or disagree with the statement you would go to different corners of the school. The statement that the facilitator read was that the school was a very diverse place. And interestingly enough, all the racialized people walked to the corner that said strongly disagree, and then all the people who were not racialized walked to the corner where it said strongly agree. And I think that was one of those moments where I was like, oh wow, the way I see life and the way that I see law and law school is actually very different from someone who has not only a different upbringing but also someone who comes from a different racial background than I do. And even in my day to day practice, I've had older clients challenge my ability to be intimidating.

Fiona Wong: 14:53

Or they would say, just so you know, opposing counsel on the other side is a very senior male, do you think you would be able to take them on or negotiate things even though you're a younger female? And in that instance, I did stand up for myself and I said, look, this is my style, I don't care what opposing counsel looks like, how old they are, whether they are male, female, or otherwise, but I always take the same approach and if my approach doesn't align with you, it seems like we're not a good fit and you might have to find another lawyer. And so I've had these doubts about my competency because of how I look. I look very young. I still get ID'd at BC Liquor.

Fiona Wong: 15:28

I'm 30. And so I have these experiences where sometimes clients will show up to a call and they just automatically assume that I'm the legal assistant or I'm the student because I'm not talking or because I'm the one taking notes. But a lot of the times when I'm junioring on a file, I'm actually the one who's doing all the research and the partner is delivering my research. So those are things that I had never really encountered until I started practicing as a lawyer. In answer to your second question, what opportunities do you see for change?

Fiona Wong: 15:57

Tons. I think admitting more Asian law students to law schools, obviously there are very strict criteria at UVic law as well, so it has to be of course based on merit, but to the extent that it's possible to ensure that our income and classes are more diverse and reflective of Canadian society, I think that would be very important. I speak Cantonese, I'm from Hong Kong and there are a lot of people who speak Cantonese in Vancouver and the Lower Mainland, but I actually am probably the only Cantonese employment lawyer. But it is one of the most spoken languages in our community. So I think admitting more Asian law students is the first one.

Fiona Wong: 16:34

The second is retaining Asian associates and helping them feel supported and that they belong so that they don't leave within the earlier years of practice. And then finally, promoting Asian lawyers to partnership at their law firms so that they rise to levels of leadership. I'm actually working on an initiative to try and address that right now through Facult BC, so I'm planning to launch a future partners program where I've brought together a volunteer faculty of Asian partners and managing partners at different law firms right now, and then they will be offering sessions and one on one mentorship to senior associates between six to nine years of call who are thinking about partnership so that they can create a safe space for them to ask these questions and also demystify the partnership process. Because I think in law school people talk a lot about making partner specifically in a big law firm but nobody actually really talks about how to do it. What are the considerations with financial planning?

Fiona Wong: 17:27

How do you buy into a law firm? How do you build a book of business? How do you bring that book of business? And ultimately if partnership doesn't work out, what's your exit strategy? So those are things that I think need to be demystified, and I'm hoping to create a little bit of change in that regard.

Fiona Wong: 17:42

So I hope to launch that program sometime in early twenty twenty six.

Emma Ulveland: 17:45

Wow. Congratulations. I love that you not only see the change, but you are the change. You're bringing it with you. Seriously, could you be any more incredible?

Emma Ulveland: 17:54

And I am really sorry for all of the absolutely disrespectful things that you've experienced up to this point, but it's amazing to see that you're leading the charge. It's very inspiring, and I bet there's a lot of students who really want to follow in your footsteps. For people who do, could you maybe give a little bit of advice to a student who wants to go the same direction as you in law?

Fiona Wong: 18:18

So far, I have found the career in law to be very rewarding because I really love it. This is a very demanding profession. You're held to a very high standard in terms of your professional character, but also the quality of your work, your integrity, how you conduct yourself in your personal life. I actually administered the barristers and solicitors oath to a friend yesterday who was transferring practice from Ontario to BC, and it was a helpful refresher to myself to be able to review the words of that oath again and just to make sure we're committed to upholding the rule of law as well as our constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedom in Canada. So I think it's really important to not take the power and prestige that we have as a lawyer for granted.

Fiona Wong: 19:00

A lot of people rely on us for help and I think we owe it to ourselves and society to make sure we do a good job. In terms of advice, I think it's really important to think about the type of lifestyle that you want. Do you want work life balance? Do you want to make a lot of money? I often talk to people and ask them why they are interested in law and a lot of people say, oh because it pays well.

Fiona Wong: 19:22

But I think the question to think about is if there was no money or no job stability, if neither existed, is this still a career that you would want to pursue? And if the answer is no, then maybe law is not the right career. And I say that because there are currently a lot of people who are looking for jobs in their first couple of years of practice. But I think with the realities of our economy right now, it is true that a lot of law firms are becoming a bit more purse tight, so they don't want to spend money on hiring junior students or lawyers. And so I think it's important to think if you don't have any sort of guarantee in terms of how well you'll be paid or job stability, is this still something you want?

Fiona Wong: 20:01

The ultimate takeaway answer to this question is that you have to really love the law and be passionate for it in terms of helping people, in terms of interpreting the law in order to thrive in this profession. I think if you come into it for any other reason, you might risk being very unhappy and being stuck.

Emma Ulveland: 20:19

That's such a great question and I'm actually surprised that this is the first time I've ever heard anyone ask that and I think it's applicable to any field, really. I think we should all be asking that question of ourselves, whatever job it is we wanna pursue, why are we doing it? What advice you might also give to graduates who are maybe a little bit unsure about how to navigate once they've graduated, breaking into this field. Let's say they've decided, yep, this is for sure the path I want to go. How do I start now that I've finished my degree?

Fiona Wong: 20:49

For sure. So I think the natural path after graduating with a JD is to secure articles. So I would highly recommend that you go through that process. It's a nine month process where you have to take the bar exam through the PLTC as well as practical experience at a law firm. And then after that, identify the firm or the practice area that you want to pursue.

Fiona Wong: 21:12

And don't be afraid to pivot, I always tell people that. I started in construction and straddle law but I always had an interest in labor and employment law so when that opportunity came up, I seized it. Don't be afraid to move around and figure out what it is that you like or don't like. And if law ultimately ends up not being what you want, which actually is the case for a lot of people that I know, there's a lot of other alternate career paths that you could take. You could go into student recruitment at a law firm, which they usually require a JD background.

Fiona Wong: 21:44

You could go into politics, you could go into policy making, and there's actually a lot of benefits that you get from your JD degree. For example, I think I developed a lot of critical thinking skills that I otherwise wouldn't have gotten if I had not studied for a law degree, so being a lawyer is not the only option. And I would say don't be afraid simply because of the sunk cost fallacy. Know, I've invested so much time into this, I have to keep going. And there's also another phenomenon called the golden handcuffs.

Fiona Wong: 22:12

The golden handcuffs basically refers to when people stay at a job even though they're not getting much fulfillment out of it, but they do it because the paycheck is really nice. So don't be afraid to explore alternate career opportunities if you find yourself not being happy in law. There are people who thrive and just genuinely love their practice, love the firm that they're at, and I think that is a very rare but beautiful thing.

Emma Ulveland: 22:35

Thank you so much for sharing all of this amazing wisdom. I have to ask, what comes next? I know you've touched on your new initiative. Do you have any other big dreams or aspirations you want to share with our audience?

Fiona Wong: 22:47

So my term with the Federation of Asian Canadian Lawyers is coming to an end soon. It will be my sixth and last year on the board of directors. So I would like to contribute or give back to the legal community in other ways. I'm about to join the board of the National Asian Pacific American Bar Associations known as NAPABA. It's kinda like ACLBC except instead of 850 members, they've got 80,000 Asian American attorneys and law students in The States.

Fiona Wong: 23:12

So I will be shadowing to become the next regional governor for the Pacific Northwest. I hope to be able to use that to build a stronger connection between Canada and The US, which I think right now, we do need that more than ever. And I think it's important to unite together and have a stronger voice when it comes to advocating for things like EDI. Because regardless of which side of the border you're on, the issues that we face in our careers are very similar, and it's just better to come together instead of reinventing the wheel and trying to do everything on your own. So I hope to use my position at NAPABA to liaise further between FACWOBC and some of the other equity seeking organizations down south as well.

Emma Ulveland: 23:53

We absolutely wish you the very best of luck, and I have no doubt that you will make incredible impacts there as well. For those of you who have listened to this show before, you know what time it is. And, Fiona, let me explain. This is our rapid fire section of our show where we're gonna ask you a couple of questions. I don't want you to think too hard about it.

Emma Ulveland: 24:16

The first thing that comes to your mind, I want you to share it. Are you ready?

Fiona Wong: 24:19

Okay. What

Emma Ulveland: 24:20

was your favorite off campus spot when you were here at UVic?

Fiona Wong: 24:25

Oh, there was a cocktail shop that I really liked called Clark and Company. It's no longer around, but I used to go there a lot, and the bartenders were always very friendly. The food was great. The cocktails were very unique, and I've not been able to find another cocktail shop that compares. So I think that was definitely my favorite.

Fiona Wong: 24:42

But if it has to be an off campus spot that still exists in Victoria, I would have to say Gozen Izakaya. It's my favorite Japanese restaurant downtown, and it's got some of the freshest sashimi.

Emma Ulveland: 24:53

Good choice. What about on campus? Did you have any particular spots on campus that you really enjoyed?

Fiona Wong: 25:00

Honestly, I went to Booster Juice a lot. Yes.

Emma Ulveland: 25:04

I got that. Did you have any professors or other staff members that made a big impact on you while you were here?

Fiona Wong: 25:12

I would say Dean Freya Kodar. She's always been so warm and so welcoming and she's always made me feel included at UVic Law, so I really owe it to her and I would definitely give her the shout out.

Emma Ulveland: 25:25

Aw, I love it. If you could do everything again, first of all, would you? Second of all, what would you do more of?

Fiona Wong: 25:35

Yes, I definitely will in a heartbeat. So I had the opportunity to work part time in the admissions office with Daelene O'Neil, I also had the pleasure of sitting on the admissions committee in my third year of law school where I got to review applications for incoming JD as well as JID candidates and I found that to be a very, very meaningful exercise and I wish I could do more of that. Facult BC also set up reoccurring scholarships at UVic for the next three years and I really wanted to make sure that was something we accomplished during my term as president. And so if I could do that again, absolutely. I wish we could contribute more funding beyond the three years.

Fiona Wong: 26:12

But we will leave that up to the future presidents to decide, and I hope that is something we can continue to do for the years to come.

Emma Ulveland: 26:18

Well, thank you, Fiona. You are such a joy to chat with, and I'm so glad that you could share with me and with our listeners all about your amazing career journey thus far. We really appreciate you coming on the show today.

Fiona Wong: 26:30

Thank you so much for having me.

Emma Ulveland: 26:32

Work It is developed and distributed by Co op and Career Services at the University of Victoria. It is hosted by Emma Auldland and produced by Joy Palafin. Today's guest was UBIC law graduate and twenty twenty four emerging alumni recipient, Fiona Wong. Our theme music and art were created by Emma Aldrin and audio editing by Emma Aldrin. To learn more about career possibilities and resources from UVic, visit uvic.ca/career-services.